Tuesday, May 28, 2013

The Nicon Lists

Looking through the Nicon lists, by far the most interesting (besides by own :-)  ) is Brian Smith's Dark Elves. The big block of Executioners backed up by two Cauldrons, two Hydras and a big block of Corsairs looks formidable and ill be very interested to see how it plays out.

Neil Williamson's Dwarfs look far more interesting than normal tournament Dwarfs and kudos to Neil for bringing a list that looks like it is set up to give his opponents a game.

As to the strength of lists otherwise on show. It's good to see Tom Mawdsley's list getting a run out. It certainly has all the tools to do well - Rune Maw, Crown of Command etc. I expect that it will place well.

Mike King's list is also very formidable - having played it a lot recently. Mike has opted for Death & Metal which looks strong in this field but also suits me as the dual Light Slaans were a ball breaker for my Daemons.

I can't comment with any confidence on the new Warriors as I have only had a couple of games versus the new book. I expect them to be solid but I can't help thinking the small model count in most makes them very reliant on the vagaries of the dice.

Overall it looks like it should be an interesting weekend.


  1. "is set up to give his opponents a game".... so what I gather from that is, to give your opponents a game, you have to put your self at a disadvantage for the sake of their fun?

    I mean the Anvil list is by no means a big disadvantage, but I feel like it can only work against the most specific of lists. It's a cool and fun list to take but still has its key flaws.

    I realize that to most, the most standard of Dwarf lists isn't that appealing to play against. But it is the most, viable - a word I think you would agree with Pete. So why do I have to make a list that kicks its self in the balls for the other dudes sake.

    Will be a very fun weekend regardless! :D

    Simon S - Your favorite Dwarf Player ;D

    1. I'm not sure the point of this reply because I feel that it will fall on deaf ears.

      The fact of the matter is that it is not fun regardless.

      Your Dwarf army will castle in a 12" by 18" block in a corner, six turns will be played in 60 minutes and the score will be 9-11 points to either side. That does not equate to fun for a person who has travelled to the event, paid entry, transport and accommodation. They have come with the expectation of 6 games and get 5.

      Repeat for five other people. You score between 55-65 battle points and mark it down as an achievement. I don't see how that is fun.

      I don't see what you get out of it......nothing is learned, nothing is ventured, no new experience is acquired.

    2. The fact of the matter is that it is not fun regardless.

      The skink cloud will out deploy you no matter what you do, leaving your units in the wrong place, four turns will be played in 150 minutes (140 of which spent in the lizards' flee, shoot-with-everything, cast 20 spells phases), and the score will be 20-0 no matter what you do. That does not equate to fun for a person who has travelled to the event, paid entry, transport and accommodation. They have come with the expectation of being able to play a two-person game in 6 games and get 5.

      Repeat for five other people. You score between 110-120 battle points and mark it down as an achievement. I don't see how that is fun.

      I don't see what you get out of it......nothing is learned, nothing is ventured, no new experience is acquired.

      Hands down, a skink cloud is MORE boring than a dwarf castle. You can at least crack a dwarf castle. . .


    3. James... Show me on the doll where the bad skink touched you.

      Perhaps if you include some flyers and MM your experience may improve :-)

    4. I think I've learned a lot actually, playing with Dwarfs or not. Every time I attend a tournament, I feeling like something new is always learned, something is ventured and I always get a new experience.

      I really do enjoy playing Dwarfs, not because I like ruining peoples weekends, that's just being talking shite but just because I do, I think they hold true to the fluff, I like the models and and etc.

      I've always been under the impression that people really don't mind playing Dwarfs, thats the shit they get is just a sort of "thing" but that a game against them isn't as bad as people make it out to be. But if people truly feel like they've wasted their money and their time(which I actually don't want because I think that is a bit crap and if I'm causing that, then it should.) because they got a game which isn't the most exiting or fun general. I don't know, maybe I'll a find new army to play for fantasy.

      I do apologize if my post came off silly or dumb, I wasn't going for that.

      Simon S.

    5. All the dwarf stuff is smack talk anyway. I don't mind playing dwarfs but I roleplay hating to play dwarfs. It's all about the culture.

      I have contemplated myself running a dorf army seeing how well Simon's played.

    6. I shall not be put into flattery good sir!

      Well... maybe just a little bit lol.

  2. Ymmij, I'm not entirely sure who you are but I'm not sure you really understand the skink cloud match-up.

    Firstly, with the exception of NATCON (where a few games did go overtime and I was using them for the first time) I have generally finished 6 turns in every game since.

    Secondly, you are correct that a Skink Cloud does a lot in every phase (even combat as I use this phase to redirect and plan for my Scar Vets to be in combat every turn ideally). The main complaint about the Dwarf book is that it only does something in one phase and is thus boring. The army's main offense though would seem to be it messes with your movement phase. Well tough, the movement phase is far and away the most important phase of the game and it's not your god given right to move and charge where you want in your movement phase. Any high powered army being used by a good player should be able to stop you moving and charging where you want, though I grant you not as effectively as a Skink Cloud.

    Thirdly, Skink Clouds are infamous for not being able to score 20-0 victories. I've only achieved one and that was in a best possible match-up and I don't think Mal gets too many either. A good player with a strong well balanced army should only ever get 20 nil'd in Blood and Glory or due to very poor luck.

    Fourthly, No one in NZ is grabbing that many points with Skink Clouds. I only managed 97/120 at TBM, Mal managed 107/160 at Natcon and I managed 101. This overriding dominance you perceive does not match reality.

    Fifth, I've gotten heaps out of playing a Skink Cloud, I now have a much better understanding of the movement phase than I previously did, a better appreciation of power dice and dispel dice management and an expert understanding of building rules.

    A skink cloud is definitely crackable, ask Sam Campbell who pushed me off the board at NATCON, Mark Skilton who expertly charged off most of my army, James Brown or Joel Van Deven-long who've held me to 11-9 and 10-10 despite bad luck or Mal Patel who only lost because I got absurdly lucky in a Watchtower game. All of those guys though, understand the movement phase and the game as a whole and took armies that reflect that understanding. This is why the could compete with the Skink Cloud.

    Is it a very powerful army? Yes.

    Is it boring because you don't understand how to beat it? No, you're using an argument of false equivalence where how hard something is to beat equates to how boring it is.

    In summary, get some flyers and magic missiles and watch the skink cloud roll over and die.

    1. Armour loves skink clouds. Natcon game we only got to 4th turn and would have got close to tabling him, I managed to push most of his skinks off with my two 3+5+ Bloodcrushers. With skink clouds you got to charge the army synchronously with multiple hard armour targets to force him to double flee multiple times. I managed to cross his lanes so that when he fled, he fled through 4 units instead of 1 or 2. Skink Cloud isn't that scary. As he has no punch other than a 6 dicing Midas monkey you screen with your mass and armour and punch through with your fast stuff. If you move your line up he can't get out of your way fast enough.

    2. ^^This, I dropped my Metal Slann down a hole on the first turn and lost any chance of hurting armour. I would have been tabled given 6 turns. A good player used the strengths of his well balanced army and the nature of the scenario (Battle for the Pass).

      Also invincible bloodcrushers help lol. I still have nightmares where I'm a Slann casting everything I have at a Bloodcrusher who just laughs away.

    3. Oh that, that's just my dice rolls. All the local Club guys will attest that I'm a tinny bastard. I've even had dice auditing.


    4. "Armour loves Skink clouds" Hence the inclusion of 3 salamanders and tin opening Scar vets with Metal magic for luls. Armour hates skink clouds mate.

    5. It doesn't scare me as much. They're gonna end up nerfing Slann's anyway.

    6. Really Sam?

      I disagree so much its not funny! From my experience running Brettonians at Skinks, I can honestly say Id be hard pressed to lose unless I had some horrid luck or made an epic mistake.

  3. So what have we learnt here today?
    Dont play Dwarfs, Lizardmen, Skaven, WoC, Daemons, Vampires, Tomb Kings, Empire, High Elves, Dark Elves, Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Orcs and Goblins, Brettonians, Beastmen, and even Wood Elves as it wont be fun for your opponent. Stay at home fellas, in case you ruin some ones day...

  4. Or listen to http://baddice.co.uk/daily165/ and enjoy playing against lizards

  5. Well my comments seem to have sparked a reaction. That's always good but wasn't necessarily the intent.

    Personally I think there are always bad matchups for every army but my point wasn't that I can't beat Dwarfs. I'd fancy myself to win 99/100 due primarily to the attitude of Dwarf players. What do I mean by this? That they seem to glorify in the non-game.

    Comments like "Well if I can't have a magic phase" and "You come in and get me out" are very negative. That with the joking comments John made yesterday that Dwarfs see an 8-12 as an 18-2 or a 10-10 as a 20-0 are only made half in jest.

    Features of the Dwarf army are not conducive to tournament gaming but Dwarf players (as a group) where it as a badge of honour. That is why I think it is laughable to expect a new book will mean any changes to outcome

    1. Peter! You yourself have said to me that the Dwarf book will see quite a bit a change. To start, you said Organ guns will have to roll to hit on several occasions once the new book comes out almost as if you had a vendetta for them to change... And that we won't see multiple dispel runes.

      If that isn't a big change I don't know what is! I still stand by the fact that me organ guns won't roll to hit but maybe that is just wishful Dwarf thinking

    2. Did you read what I said?

      I said it won't matter if the book changes as the Dwarf player attitude won't.

      Reading Comprehension = NOT ACHIEVED

    3. Haha

      Are you really going to start correcting/grading my English now? Hey man, what ever keeps you on your horse I guess! lol :D. I mean, I've could have pointed out a few things for you Pete, but I'm just to much of a champ really.

      Now Peter, show me on the doll where your uncle Dwarf touched you!

    4. Your missing the point Simon. If the changing of a single war machine or reduction in the number of dispels you get is such a major change to you, then you have bigger problems than such trivial alterations to existing book.

    5. Half in jest yes Pete but only because unlike Simon I tend to lose most of my games when playing Dwarfs. As for the Come and get me out thing thats not how I play Dwarfs I've always preferred charging straight up the middle and positively hate castling, which is why I lose so often - although against some armies castling is honestly the only thing we can do (I mean trying to chase double fleeing skink clouds around the table when your M3 isnt much fun). The "you cant have a magic phase" bit is just us doing what we do well plus it annoys the hell of out of people...

      ...and Simon stop poking the Bear your going to get us all in trouble

    6. "...and Simon stop poking the Bear your going to get us all in trouble"

      No not at all John. He's just confirmed my point - as Tim pointed out.

    7. @John - Pete is no bear! He's a cuddly kind man with a heart of gold!

      @Jossy - No I get Pete's point now, yes I misread it and I acknowledge that I did. It only takes a re-read. :D

      And to be fare, my attitude is not negative when playing with Dwarfs (and I defiantly don't hold with a badge of honor), I think anything I say that is even remotely negative is simply a joke, I really don't mean anything by it.

      I do think, if the book was changed (in one way or another) that change would come about in our "negative" attitude.

    8. OK, I can understand Pete's comment about the 'Dwarf player attitude'. However, I think this is a result of the extremely limited nature of the Dwarf army design, rather than us Dwarf players being miserable sods (but then I would say that....).

      "Come get me" comes from having the worst movement phase in the game. As Jeff points out, this is the most important phase, and a limitation to M3 infantry and move-or-fire shooters means we'd be fools to try and compete. So it's better to sit still.

      "Boom, boom, boom" comes from having no magic, and having to acheive the same effect with war machines.

      "Screw you, no magic phase for you" comes from us having no magic phase, but at least having the best anti-magic in the game. Sadly, this is universally seen as a negative by non-Dwarves.

      "No, I'm not going to use miners, rangers, Strollaz and Anvil charges" comes from having mediocre combat troops who can't foot it with most other combat units out there. ASL and single attacks make Dwarf troops brittle unless in very large (and expensive) blocks. Fewer blocks means even fewer movement options, go back to point 1.

      So if GW do sort their shit out and give us a better book, then I predict that Dwarf army behaviours will change. I'm hoping for a form of magic (ie. the ability to focus combat power, particularly into close combat), chaff units (movement options), monsterous infantry golems/chariots/monsters (better, faster combat) and tougher infantry (better combat). Weapons teams, move and fire shooters and entrenched war machines will help (they'll need less protection, and less castling)

      In return, Dwarves can lose some or a lot of our current anti-magic pre-eminence as well as shooting prowess. They won't be needed anyway, as Dwarves will have more options in other phases. Combat in particular is vital if Dwarves are to be better yet still fit within the fluff.

      If GW does remove the constraints on Dwarves, I think we'll see more Dwarves in the middle of the board, rather than huddling on the baseline hoping their shooting achieves results in the first three turns.

  6. Replies
    1. Best input I've heard all day Mal, well done....


      Chump! ;D

    2. I'm going to! I've got an unkillable tincan flying a frisbee! I'mma gonna have ruby slippers too so I can "Swoop-Swoop *and* Pew-Pew" !

      Still doesn't change that I find it less boring trying to crack a dwarf castle and more boring trying to stay awake watching my opponent roll endless dice because 50 units of skinks flee 8 times each, followed by 20 spells cast at +14 with 9 extra dice per spell and all ones, twos and threes counting as eights, followed by umpty templates from salamanders and infinity+1 poisoned shots. It's boring because it's not interactive.

      J (hyperbole - it's got 4 syllables btw)

  7. These forums(sic) are entertaining. More hyperbole please.

  8. OK
    Instead of comping dwarves out, after all that would be racist. How about comping out all troops under 5 foot. Is that heightist?
    That way we get rid of Dwarfs and Skinks.
    But not me cos I'm 5'4"