Sunday, August 25, 2013

Warpfire - Beware the Veto Beatstick

Next month we have Warpfire here in Wellington. It is a 1000 point tournament with the emphasis on "FUN".

When the pack was put together it was felt that an exhaustive comp list was counterproductive. While it is not easy to define "FUN" at 1000 points, it is pretty easy to recognise what is not fun.

So with that it mind please kept that in mind when lodging your lists. While it might be clever to include Epidemius or Throgg in your list, Special Characters will only be allowed on a case by case basis. Backing Throgg with a unit of 10 Trolls at 1000 points is not "FUN" nor is Epi with a block of PBs and then all BoN except for the Skullcannon. Better give SCs a wide berth unless they are as fluffy as a newborn kitten with learning difficulties.

Similarly remember that this is 1000 points. Given you normally are lucky to see 2-3 Ethereal units at 2400 points, suddenly turning up with five at 1000 points will likely see the Locky Beatstick be wielded. As a rule of thumb 0-2 ethereal units is probably about right. "FUN" remember.

As an added incentive the list of vetoes will be published and once they have an acceptable list then those players will be "randomly" drawn against each other Round One. Should you be vetoed a second time, it means you, like the fluffy newborn kitten, are having learning difficulties and further penalties will be incurred.

So don't be a dick. Bring a list that reflects the spirit of the event. Solid sure....just not too extreme.


I've been asked to post a list that I would see as hard but acceptable. So here goes:

Daemons of Chaos 1000 points

Herald of Nurgle - General, Greater Gift

20 Plaguebearers - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant

4 Beasts of Nurgle

2x 1 Beast of Nurgle

5 Chaos Furies - Mark of Nurgle


Characters = 140 points
Core = 295 points
Special = 430 points
Rare = 135 points

Edit: As a result of feedback received there will be no vetoes at Warpfire. The event is No Comp meaning you can bring whatever configuration you wish.


  1. I'm not sure 6 Beasts of Nurgle are any easier to shift than Throgg + 6 trolls. The two singles can control enemy movement and daemonic instability beats the pants out of stupidity and leadership 8, not to mention the 5+ ward, swiftstride and -1 to hit. Particularly when backed up with a mobile, cheap and difficult to kill cannon to remove any large single model that can actually hurt them. Leaving the tools required to defeat the Beasts from enemy armies rather less than numerous.

    Re my ethereal list (3 x 5 hexwraiths, 4 x 20 zombies, single spirit host, master necro and a wraith essentially) I decided against it as I actually believe it would fare really poorly against the majority of the field and only have a few really good match ups. It will lose to DoC for obvious reasons, skaven (seer/spikes on abomb/magic shooting), HE (high magic, sisters, or flying magical monsters), Empire/Lizards (light/high wizards, bound magic missiles), WoC (skullcrushers), light magic/magic shooting (TK/Chaos dwarves/dwarves). Leaving.... any OnG and Ogres that fail to bring a single magic weapon or magician that it will crush. Hmmm I suspect that crushing that list would be quite fun for the majority of my opponents as it would be a case of blasting the ghost knights off then crumbling the hell out of the slow and ineffectual zombies.

    I'm thinking at 1000pt to be somewhere between fun, solid and competitive you really need to push one aspect of your army to the exclusion of being more generalist. In the Nurgle DoC army presented here the theme is resiliency, a 1+ army from Empire or Chaos Troll list is similar in that function. Ethereal is a different kind of resiliency, a unique aspect that VC can push, as they are kind of screwed against 1+/2+ without it at this level, short of taking 3 odd screams (banshee/mortis/terrorgheist) and praying for no cannons to take out the decent one (t gheist - so good luck against dwarves/ogres/deamons/empire). With every new book the amount of magical attacks in the game is increasing, leaving aside that 3 ranks and a banner from any army will actually kill hexwraiths over 2 rounds on average (skaven slaves/zombies might take 3 to 4 rounds). You won't be doing to much soulstriding with a master necro as you don't want him anywhere near enemy lines.

    I'm not trying to be a dick here - fun is difficult to quantify, as often what we find fun is in our own lists rather than what is across the field. I'm looking a bringing a more generalist WoC army based around a couple of chariots and unit of knights which I feel is a lot stronger than the VC list above. The resiliency here is about T5 and some 1+ combined with speed to get to the enemy. I find it really fun to play but cannot be sure how fun it is for the opponent.

  2. PS. I'm not really going to go ahead and say what will and will not get vetoed. If that were the case it would be hard caps... So if you want to risk it then feel free to submit whatever you like.

    Just know that I'll be checking all the lists on or after the submit date so

    a) DON'T SUBMIT AN INCORRECT LIST. You have the army book. How can you possibly get the points wrong...

    b) Don't get vetoed. Play on the safe side if you wish, or try and test me... Penalties will be given out for douchebaggery. Before and during the tournament.

  3. hmm however you justify it, 360 points of nurgle beasts out of 1000 points is broken. Apart from their stat line (T5 lol), they have *thirteen* special rules. And they're in the special section so you're not limited to 250 points (skullcrushers, demigriffs)

    I think there's going to have to be some guidance given now - hard caps if you will. I just can't see how Throgg and 6 Trolls is "OP WTF BROKEN!" but 6 BoN and a Skillcannon isn't.

    1. Throgg moves Trolls to Core meaning you don't have Core Tax of 250 points, that is difference.

      The Daemon list posted is not my list but an example of a potential list. Easily mitigated by Chaos Hero with Breath Weapon and OTS, backed up by Chimera.

      The point rhat was being made is that at 1000 points you need to be careful with SC that shift units from one slot to another and therefore should err on side of caution.

      And you should be careful with extreme armies - e.g. Ethereal - where not all armies e.g. O&G, have ready access to Magic Weapons or offensive magic at 1000 points.

      At the end of the day it is up to Locky to decide if things are broken or not. I've tried to give examples.

      Remember it is meant to be fun and I'm guessing turning up and finding a third of the field with Throgg armies isn't fun.

    2. This is why I didn't want to post a list but Peter Williamson (I curse you for trapping me)said it would be helpful.

      Lose a Beast of Nurgle and a Plaguebearer and put in some Nurglings or more Furies. Does that make the list more palatable? I personally think it makes little difference but who knows.

    3. What would be better is have all the beasts but not the cannon; or take a grey seer but not the gutter runners; or have the unkillable disc-hero but not the skullcrushers.

      Don't have a block of 4 beasts *and* two singles *AND* a skullcannon. There's a 1000 points of lean honed daemons - there's no fat or fluff.

      As an example, here's the Throgg army I was going to take:

      6 Trolls
      2x5 Hounds
      12 Forsaken
      4 Dragon Ogres

      I called it fun. It used a SC mechanic to make a themed list. It had no magic or banners or ward saves. I am sad that I can't use it to crush all before me with its brokenness :(

      As I said, 6 Beasts and a Skullcannon, (almost) no matter what else is in the list, isn't going to be fun. Fun is subjective I know. What surprises me is that the suggested list was classified as "fun" and not "veto it with the big stick!". I echo Wil below - we just don't know where the goalposts are.


  4. Throgg + 10, was the example. Aren't the trolls core with Throgg, meaning Throgg + 10 gives you all your special/rare points to play with, while 6xBeast + skannon uses up those same points? I would say that is the difference.

  5. Personally I think that if you avoid Special Characters and build a list that is up to 250 points characters, 250-300 points of Core (not SC Core), 300-350 points Special and 150-200 points Rare then you shouldn't have too many problems bringing a competitive and acceptable list.

  6. I don't think Warhammer is balanced in any form at 1000 pts. So yeah don't be a dick is a good call.

    I would like to attend and would probably steal your list Pete if I was going. It is hard as nails.

  7. I am pretty suspicious that the logic of "fun" being espoused here implies a form of subjectivity we commonly know as "comp" and the Warpfire tournament has been labelled "no comp."

    This "fun"/no comp language is pretty confusing because everyone in Wellington knows that if they don't turn up with the hardest legal list they can, they will get thumped.

    What is also not clear is how the veto process works. This needs to be spelt out very clearly because we as attending players will be trying to work out the ‘right’ balance for our lists.

    Pete, you must recognise that you will be the only person to KNOW that you won’t get a veto and that gives you a small advantage over the remainder of the field who will not know for sure if they are going to get vetoed.

    What I am trying to say here, is that clarity of the veto criteria needs to ensured to endeavour that there is both a fair and balanced playing field for the tournament and to reduce the crying from participants who either overshoot or undershoot the “fun” criteria and end up disadvantaged by it one way or the other.

    What also worries me is that those players who ‘for whatever reason’ get a veto are already being called ‘dicks.’ How does this make for a happy field?

    Wil H

    1. Haha, I don't think anyone should be offended by Locky calling you a dick...

      I don't mind the whole Veto uncertainty. If the fear of a veto makes people go out of their way to make a softer list then it works.

      Also its a onedayer, they should not be taken seriously in any way shape or form. I personally wish they weren't even included in the rankings but such is life

    2. Really Wil? Really?

      You think I've engineered this whole thing to get myself an advantage so I can crush all before at a 1000 point one day event. Damn, you've rumbled me. And I would have got away with it to but for that pesky Wil :-)

      And I was looking forward to getting all Ed Norton on you all. Back to my secret underground lair where I can hatch another more sinister secret plan. :-)

      I'm having a chat to Locky now to clarify things and ensure that we all have a level playing field.

    3. Thanks Pete. I think clarifying the veto criteria will be helpful to the players and ensure that participants don't feel disadvantaged by the veto stick.

  8. I hope my post didn't seem to whiney, came out as quite the wall of text looking back. I agree that generally SC should be avoided. It's a small skirmish, great heroes of armies shouldn't showing up at this level and most SC are pretty tough to deal with.

    I get a bit defensive with hexwraiths as I think rules wise they aren't very good (but I would like them to be), unless you playing ETC rules (which means you can hide them from magic missiles easily due to terrain amendments) and cheat with the free reforms. To do what the ETC guy did you would have to be 8" away at the start of the turn in my book (inclusive generals march radius) which means you are close enough to charge and cannot run.

    I'm really looking forward to Warpfire and hoping the list I submit will be considered fun, if not I rather like the idea that if lists get bumped back they will face each other. Put the hardliners against each other! :)

  9. I am going to take all your guys toys off anyway, so IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU BRING.

  10. I haven't heard back from Locky but as TO I'm going to make an Executive Decision.

    Due to the unease here and on other blogs the event will be as advertised, no comp. that means that there are no vetoes and you can bring what you like.

    This thread has reinforced to me everything I hate about subjective comp and it was an error on my part to try and introduce it here. Wellington has worked well over the past few years with hard caps and there was no need to change.

    People's views on what is reasonable differs and far better to have a clear line than generate unnecessary conflict.