Friday, October 31, 2014

Quit Warhammer?

Over on The Warhammer Forum a thread started overnight regarding the End Times release.

Titled "Does Endtimes make you want to quit (serious)?" It is getting quite a bit of traffic.

My contribution was the following:

It doesn't make me want to quit....but I do think that from a tournament pov things are much harder to balance.

This becomes more of an issue where you move from the more hobby event (variable sports, variable presentation taking a high percentage) to one where trinkets are given out largely based on game score.

I worry that we are moving to "End of 7th Times" where success in uncomped tournaments was unduly influenced by race selection

And that is my concern...purely towards the tournament game. I think things are going to be very hard in the next 12 months until we get to a final state. In the interim there is going to be flux.

However outside the tournament game I couldn't be more excited. Change, new models, new rules, new narrative. It really is the best of times from a hobby point of view. Suddenly everything is possible - not in a silly Warhammer 40k sixth edition way - but in a structured narrative driven story.

So quit Warhammer? Not likely.


  1. It's interesting that not too long ago you made a Golden Age of 8th Edition Warhammer call Pete, and with the benefit of hindsight you may have nailed it.

    The End Times present a major shake-up which combined with the new FAQ (and glaring lack of FAQ on some pressing issues) makes it pretty hard to tell with any certainty what direction the game is going. That said I'm sticking to my belief that the End Times are an indication of what 9th is likely to bring. Do I think that GW is moving the game in a direction which has any consideration for tournament play? Not one bit, but hey they're a model company right?

    I believe that UL and the 50% FAQ (sans Nagash) was probably able to be incorporated into tournament play without too many dramas. I'm yet to play vs Nagash (perhaps this weekend) but nothing I've seen or observed has led me to believe that having him around in tournaments is beneficial. 50% heroes/lords is a big change but I was and still am in favour of letting that ride and seeing what happens. So I'm a pretty low comp guy I guess, but anything can be taken too far (When Sir Mix-A-Lot declared he liked big butts, I don't think he meant Rosie O'Donnel). Legions of Chaos appear as if they could be brutally difficult to comp effectively.

    I think it's going to be real tough to get a good balance between allowing people to use their toys and taking the top off the most abusive combinations as has been done in the past. It's going to be tough and I think there's going to be a lot of heated discussion around the approaches the community should take. TBH (and fully acknowledging my social gamer identity), I think we could learn a thing or two from Mid-West warhammer at least in having fun while playing Warhammer. But yeah 2015 could be tough for the scene.

    Will I be thinking about quitting? Not in a million years...

    1. Will I be thinking about quitting? Not in a million years... - Jeff Kent

      Here, here. Well said, and I also second the notion.

      - Adam Richards

  2. From my point of view, it certainly seems like a bit of back to the future. The unified undead and chaos armies of 5th.

    I won't be returning to tourneys any time soon, but I hope to see some amazing armies on the web.

    Dave Kinsey

  3. I don't like the new 50% character limits, but that's only because it doesn't conform to my own views of what I'd like Warhammer to be. To me, it should be about units, and preferably the core ones at that, because then you have real armies on the table, and not glorified skirmish warbands.

    But I can't see myself quitting any time soon. I still enjoy the game, the hobby, the players and the Warhammer background. I'm not keen on any End Times tournaments, until all of the books are published, because at present the Undead and Chaos armies have too much of an advantage over the single book armies. Things are unbalanced enough as it is (though better than it was) to have super-efficient armies picked from 2-3 books.

    But for 'normal' tournaments, I expect my Dwarves will be along to make everyone's day.

  4. Comp-wise for tournaments the answer seems simple to me - "No End Times". People can still use their toys.. they just can't combine them.

    It does all seem to be getting a little bit silly in regards to army lists, particularly LoC (to the point where I begin to wonder if those writing the end-times rules actually even play WFB?).

    Love the new fluff. Hoping for some new models other than Nurgle *yawn*, but no, not quitting.

  5. I think this comes down to the tournament organisers. they can easily specify the percentages they want you don't have to just allow 50% lords and hero's. people also seemed to think that a combined max 50% of lords and heroes is a reasonable compromise.

    For those looking to get a podium finish by using Nagash. It seems likely that Nagash will come against cannons or equivalent several times in a tournament and unless you have a multi-storey building to hide behind you risk getting nagash cannoned off in turn 1 and find yourself 1200 points down and only half an army to fight all of your opponents. So if you lose 1 game 0-20 can you make enough out of the others to get to the podium.

  6. tournaments can and should follow whatever rules they want to follow. I attend a winter-themed Xmas tournament with blizzard and snow troll rules every year (all hail the Nutcracker). If Games Workshop did away with army books, points values and game scenarios I think I can still manage with my models and background. Obviously others want a formal system handed down to them from on high. Perhaps they better find some imagination themselves or, failing that, find Magic: the Gathering instead


  7. End Times: Gave my Dwarfs an outing on the 50% Lords rule, 3500 pt: 2 fully kitted lords, one slayer lord (Ungrim) , 2 Runesmiths, Thane w Banner of Valaya, slayers, hammerers, longbeards, quarrellers, 5 warmachines. Sam Campbell brought a (Proxy) Glottkin Nurgle, list with beasts, blight kings, nurgle furies, nurgle daemons and epidemius. Filthy with a capital FFFF :)
    Only unit that made any inroads was the slayers, who took out the blight kings. (Thanks to Ungrim's Killing blow) Glottkin is immensely powerful, (over-powered) and other than complete gunline with flaming runes you don't have snowball's chance against the Nurgle steamroller. I suppose you could take it on with Nagash, and tarpit it. We need to wait until the balance resets, as Chaos and Undead have the balance tilted their way at present. At the moment Nurgle is ascendent.