Tuesday, October 2, 2012

Tournament Clarifications

I am looking to put together a set of general clarifications for events that I organise. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of FAQs but represents a compilation of grey areas in the rules that I have been asked to rule on in the past 12 months.

There is only one instance of a rule change - and this has been included because we play rulebook scenarios - the rest being a decision where there are multiple interpretations.

I'd love to get feedback on these and any key questions I've missed. Happy to listen to counter arguments. Obviously these would be amended in light of any official GW FAQs.


• You cannot swift reform and enter a building in the same movement phase [Rules Change]

• Scouts do not give up the +1 for finishing deploying first [Clarification].

• True line of sight will be used unless mutually agreed. Figures height should be considered generally representative of their type regardless of conversions etc [Clarification].

• Only one character may charge out of a unit in a turn [Clarification].

• A unit may overrun if they manage to crumble a unit through combat resolution if they meet the normal criteria for overrunning. Same situation for Cornered Slaves, Exploding Squigs and their ilk [Clarification Interpretation].

• If a unit with the Impact Hits special rules charges a unit and is counter charged before impact hits have occurred then unit will still benefit from the Impact Hits special rule [Clarification].

• An infantry character mounted on an infantry mount can gain a look out sir from infantry troops. However, he still counts as being mounted, and so gains +1 armour save but cannot parry, cannot enter buildings or use items restricted to "models on foot only" [Clarification].

Race Specific

• Beastmen Herdstone must be mounted on either small or large round template i.e. either 3” or 5” diameter. It counts as Impassable Terrain and counts TLOS for Line of Sight purposes [Clarification].

• Night Goblin Mushroom do not count as "power dice" (as per their Army book), in their case 1in6 times the mushroom forces the spell to fail, and 1in12 times it will also cause a wound so it has its own in built penalties [Clarification].

• Vampiric Magic Lore Attribute can heal characters [Clarification].

Magic Specific

• Timewarp cannot increase a unit’s movement value above 10. So maximum march would be 20 inches [Clarification].

• Open Ground does not counts as a type of terrain for the spell Curse of Anraheir [Clarification].


  1. Good idea Pete, number of tournies in the UK had this for awhile, but not sure why it seemed to stop...

    I disagree with the Curse ruling, frankly its not that great an effect to begin with, as anyone can just move normally to avoid the DT tests, but meh...

    Further questions without an FAQ answer:

    Blood knights raised 1+level or just 1?
    Squig explosions with no squigs? not really a FAQ, but would be good to clarify.
    Given that a character must move to the front rank, can they move further than normally allowed to get to the front when joining a unit?

    Sure there are a few others, but thats it for now

  2. I think a model joining a unit can move as far as needed to get to the front rank.

    Curse should not include open ground, as I don't think that was intended by the spell, also it contradicts other special rules ie NG Fanatics.

    I have never come across multiple character charges from a unit being a major issue. I am guessing this is mainly aimed at Ogres?

    1. Okay, sorry, poorly worded on my behalf.

      I was inferring more towards some potential abuses of that rule, allowing characters to jump half way across the table with reforms, which can be quite influential in game. Ie BSBs or wizards getting into range when it would otherwise be impossible.

    2. You can move as much as required, up to a maximum of 2x your movement characteristic

  3. Ogres, Vampires, potentially Chaos

  4. I like curse affecting open ground cause it can be played around, but these make sense overall

  5. Agreed the Curse should effect open ground.Makes the spell a good one to take

    Timewarp should be a max of M10 IMO

    Heardstone should be no bigger than 5'

    I like the true line of sight rule you have there too

    1. I read it that timewarp dosnt change the movement characteristic, thus not breaking the "rule of 10" that people quote when trying to back up their interpretation. IMO you should be able to move greater distances.

  6. The only one I can think of is for BattleLine/battlepass/B&G the ability to go second if you choose.
    Too me its ambiguously worded compared to that of the watchtower scenario saying you must go first.

    DawnAttack and Meeting engagement give you the ability to go second if you choose.

  7. "A unit may overrun if they manage to crumble a unit through combat resolution if they meet the normal criteria for overrunning. Same situation for Cornered Slaves, Exploding Squigs and their ilk [Clarification]."

    This is a 'rule change' to be fair Pete. I know you will say I am biast, but it is clear enough in the rulebook that overrun after crumble is not RAW. It is one of the hangovers from 7th edition play IMO ;P

    1. Yeah it would annoy me in-game but I have to agree with you Jossy!

  8. "• Vampiric Magic Lore Attribute can heal characters [Clarification]."

    Yes! Totally agree to this.


  9. contentious call in re curse, but i agree with you on it
    ace, nice work actually specifying herdstone sizes

  10. I'm a big advocate for the Curse affecting open ground. BRB has terrain "features" (hills, forests etc) and terrain "types" (open ground, impassable etc)

    The spell says it affects terrain types not features = open ground is affected by the curse.

    The confusion comes from 7th ed where open ground was not a terrain type, where now it is.

    Also in terms of "overall game" being cursed in open ground is not that big a deal as you can still do the action-there is just a good reason not to. I use lore of beasts rather a lot with my woodies and there has not been a single game where the curse has created a game winning/breaking situation in an of itself. It has been a useful tool, sure, but the risk of the charge still exists.

    Joel v

  11. @James
    Curse, I'm ambivalent on - however I note the TK spell specifically refs Open Ground.
    Blood Knights just +1
    No Squig Explosion if originally no squigs
    My understanding is characters in Front Rank if possible but move is limited to twice move distance

    Consensus of my reading has been to limit to M10 based on characteristic cap
    Overrun - not concrete that it is a rules change Tim. It can be argued both ways. As a Skaven player I have "skin in this game" as well and weight of evidence suggests convention is to allow overrun

    I tend to think it is more people don't read instructions rather than ambiguity

  12. Tim

    I've marked the Overrun after crumble as Interpretation so we don't get caught up on semantics.


    Interested in what the prevalent convention is re Curse

    1. I think Curse should be affected by Open Terrain. Those battlemats and Realm of Battle boards are deceiving; open ground is full of dips, rises, small obstacles, soft ground..... It's not a perfectly flat pool table out there, nor a barren, featureless wasteland. Maybe not enough to stop an individual, even one who's been hexed, but a unit of hundreds, trying to move in a cohesive formation?

      However, if it is agreed that open terrain is a terrain type, Goblin Fanatics need to be amended to not die on moving through it.

  13. I just use the Fanatics as an example. They die as soon as they hit any terrain except for hills. So if you rule that open ground is terrain, then fanatics would die as soon as they exit the unit?

    1. Interesting observation. The fact that the TK spell specifically identifies that it does affect open ground and fanatics are not (meant to be) affected eludes to it not being a normal effect.

    2. Sam-Hills are a terrain "piece" to use the BRB wording (p116), where open ground is a terrain "type".

      The spells states "the units treat all terrain (other than impassible terrain [nb: a terrain type]) as dangerous terrain [nb: another terrain type]" and fail the tests etc. My observations inserted in square brackets.

      Terrain types and pieces co-exist in 8th and are seperate. A forest is a terrain "piece", and is also mysterious designating its terrain "type".

      I see no contradiction here, or no reason why the curse should be limited to terrain pieces when the wording of the spell references terrain types, of which open ground is one, and the board is considered open ground, therefore being a terrain type that can be affected by the curse.

      The TKing spell can be see clarification of the rules, and also confirmation that the spell affects types of terrain, not just terrain features.

    3. What about on page 116 in the BRB where it says "open ground DOESN"T affect the game"?

    4. And it doesnt until the curse/TKing spell is cast on a unit and they treat all terrain as dangerous, failing the test on a 1 or a 2. Open Ground (which the general board is considered to be) is a type of terrain = dangerous terrain tests.

      Fanatics die when the touch a piece of terrain other than a hill because as stated on p118 BRB they are considered open ground. The scree slope is also open ground unless charge, march, flee, overrun or pursue up, down, or through it. Fanatics dont do any of those, so they still treat them as open ground.

      Looking at the O&G FAQ the fanatic related questions use words such as "piece". It also references being "outside of the terrain" further strengthening the argument that fanatics are destroyed by pieces of terrain, not types of terrain as it would be physically impossible for them to ever be considered "outside of the terrain" if they were destroyed by "types" not pieces.

    5. Just to clarify my first point.

      When a unit has the curse/Tking spell cast on it, it no longer treats the gaming board as Open Ground (type). It instead treats it as Dangerous Terrain (type).

      This is consistant with p116 that states that open ground doesn't affect the game because in the specific instance where the curse/tking spell is cast, the open board is not considered Open Ground.

      Therefore, I can see no reason why we need the clarification/rule change to stop the open board being a type of terrain. It does not create inconsistances within the rules for other units (see fanatics) or contradict the Tking spell in anyway, or undermine the BRB statement that open ground does not affect the game in anyway.

      Joel v

  14. Does Mark of Khorne affect horses and other mounts, giving Khornate Knights and Marauder Horse frenzied horses? I don't know if this has been clarified, and I'm pretty sure it hasn't been FAQed by GW. Is it still a question that needs some clarification or has it been resolved?

  15. Just had a quick look at Warseer to see what the latest argument is about. Apart from overrun and crumbling the other major bone of contention is can the hellcannon pivot and shoot. Some say yes because it fires like a stone-thrower, others says no because it is not a war machine. Presumably this is the same for the ogre cannon unless it says something specific in the army book.
    I've never seen anything other then pivot and shoot for both hellcannon and ogre cannons.

    1. Cant the ogre cannon move and shoot anyway? But hellcannon yea

    2. Ironblaster is a chariot/cannon that can move and shoot but as a chariot I assume I cant pivot it to target an enemy model outside its front arc when firing.

  16. For vampire counts, I would also assume ethereal raising is also only +1 as per vampiric. It's always how I've played it.

    Another issue I've read about is the terrorgheist screaming into combat. I've played it as only being able to scream into the combat it is engaged in, makes more sense and it is already pretty good at what it does.

    I read the overrun as only being able to be done if you defeat all enemies before crumbling, and that is how I've been playing it. As overrun happens before you calculate combat results, at the end of the round of close combat (where "all of the models have fought"). Which is before crumbling happens. I understand I may be biased in this manner, though as a fan of big units it has not popped up in too many games.

    1. The problem with playing it that way, is that it makes taking 600 pts of Direwolves, which is already probably one of the best ways to run VC core, just a silly game killing option.

      'Oh whats that? It doesn't matter how badly I position my 40 pt chaff, you're stuck right there regardless? And I can do it again for the next 4-5 turns too, with equal abandon? YAY!!!'

      I'd love to have more encouragement to take my Beasts of the Night VC army, but even I can see how how stupid that would be...

    2. Theres no issue with the terrorgiest, as if you read the text properly it is clear it can only scream into a combat it is involved in.
      I agree with you on the crumble/overrun debate however, but I am biased as well.

    3. I've been running 4 X 5 dog units of dire wolves and they really don't break the movement phase, I don't see how multiplying that by 4-5 would change anything. Just about anything in the game can kill 5 X T3 no save moves without relying on crumbling (except for Joel's Captasus, but that is another story). I don't see how it is different for any other chaff unit. I may be missing something, but an all dire wolf core for VC is not what I would call threatening regardless of which way the crumbling rule is played. Instant wounds with no saves for each point lost combat by is already a pretty big drawback for unbreakable.

      I can only speak for my own experience but it has never been as issue.

      Jossy, clear wording in rule from GW? Going to have to disagree with you on that. From my reading of the text, they have left an interpretation open that they either meant or did not mean to, impossible to tell with GW.

    4. NZ scene is a little sheltered when it comes to proper flith.

      I'd trust James in this one, i've seen it done myself and if you want to see lots of non-event games then by all means see nothing wrong it.

      If it was tried on me, i'd tell my opp i was going to the toilet and come back 2 hours later shake hands and call it a 10-10


    5. Lol, Sorry Ryan. Not sure where my brain was when I wrote that...

      I was thinking of bigger units of doggies, ie 10-15 which for 100 odd points can stop any unit (which you think won't do that many wounds could be a couple of units if you're smart) within 16" from moving more than an inch a turn, and often 1 turn is all you need. At least everyone else has to seriously consider the overrun paths or back it up with another unit when they chaff block like that...

      To be fair though, (thinking more as I wrote the above) with reasonable placement you can make it so only 2-3 models of the opposing unit can get into B2B with the dogs seriously reducing damage potential to the point where 1/5 can survive in the right circumstances... (way more avoidable by your opponent though, I admit)

    6. Never played against an army comprised like that, guess I could see the gamey-ness involved and the potential for abuse. I imagine my experience is considerably sheltered. I am definitely against non-event games and wouldn't be phased with a change if my opponents wished so in such a case. As with so many things pays to clarify before anything is placed on the table.

  17. http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx163/pitchforkau/CrumbleVsOverrun-1.jpg

    I can't remember who made this diagram but it may be useful regarding the overrun/crumble dilemma, personally I allow my opponent to overrun if my unit crumbles just to keep the peace and the game moving along without bad feelings

  18. Nice worksheet - summarises the case for "No Overrun" very well.

    Interested in which gaming circles disallow overrun after crumble, exploded slaves etc. It appears none of the UK, European or Australian restrict the overrun - what about US and co?

    1. Based on observations in the Khemri forums and TK players experiences, it appears the US trend more to "No overrun", where European/UK gaming tends more to allow it more often than not. Thats purely the combination of unbreakable/unstable rules from the rule book. Skaven slaves/squig herds etc are not really part of the forum discussion as the threads tend to focus on the rule book special rules, not army book ones, so no idea how they get treated.

  19. So Pete are you saying that a squig herd with no squigs left when it goes to explode doesn't explode?
    Thiw would have made a difference in our game last week as the black guard killed all the squigs in HTH so the break test was being taken by about half a dozen gobin herders.
    Because they exploded, they killed the black guard rather than fleeing although if I had pursued the fleeing goblins I could have gone over one or more fanatics with worse results.

    been reading the tournament rule caps and I wondered whether there is a history as to why they are drawn the way they are.

    No problem with a max +2 dice cap on PD but then to allow things that provide a variable result to get an exemption and then to allow the herd stone to get an exemption (especially with Raymonds 5 beast sorcerers) it seems inconsistent that they get a pass.

    same with shooting. if a unit produces artillery dice shots especially if they auto hit, then why don't they count as multiple sayt 4 or 6 shots. Might not make a difference unless you start getting Ogre lists with 20 lead belchers.

    Gray seers must be wanting to trasde in their warpstone tokens for mushrooms to get around the cap.

    1. @John - saying that you can't buy a Squig Herd sans squigs.

    2. John, when this style of comp was first implemented all armies were restricted to 2 dice bonus. Beasts and HEs (the two armies that get the most from the variable dice) were regularly ending up as the lowest placing armies in tournaments. They were given the extra dice to allow them both to account for their overpriced models and heavy reliance on spells to get the job done.
      Even with the bonus power dice, both armies are still mediocre on average, and heavily reliant on a decent draw to get good tournies results. Neither of them have placed at any major tournament since so clearly the extra dice aren't tipping the scales off the edge...

    3. James
      So even with ASF and rerolls to hit and hordes of WLs and sword masters you still can't get the job done?

      What hope for lesser elves when the noble Asur need additional support.

      Interesting on the background but it still seems like an inconsistent place to draw the line.

    4. Also, the Banner of Sorcery, and any other d3 PD generator will roll a 1 as often as it rolls a 3. So it comes out at an average of 2 anyway. Granted that a roll of 1 still allows channelling, but this is a relatively rare event (i.e. one turn in three the BoS generates only 1 PD, allowing a channel roll. Assuming two mages, the High Elf player will only get that PD 1/3 of the time. So only 1/9 turns will the High Elf player channel an extra PD)

    5. John, your poor "lesser Elves" effectively have ASF in 90% of combats you need it anyway! I'm sure you know how good that is when the enemy strikes back against your (less) expensive T3 5+ save Elves. We both need magic to tip the balance, you guys get a Cauldron though, which far and away outshines 1 possible extra PD that I get!

      Tell you what though, because I'm nice, you can have the Banner of Sorcery and I'll take the Cauldron, fair trade?

  20. And it's not as if Tane and his ilk is going to let either the High Elves or Dark Elves have a magic phase anyway.

  21. Re: Swift Reformng and entering buildings.
    I agree with the intention here, but I would add that you can make this move as long as you start the move within your move distance of the building.
    I don't think it's a problem if someone is legitimately near the buildng but facing the wrong way.
    -Swift Reform to turn around if facing the wrong way and enter: that's fine.
    -Swift Reform to push your front rank into range then enter: that's abusing the rules.