Monday, September 15, 2014

NZTC Comp Sandbox

It has been suggested that the use of ETC comp for next year's NZTC may be acting as a deterrent to people signing up.

Interested on people's preference for comp for the event:

1. ETC
2. FOB Lite with/without Special Characters

Personally I'm most interested in getting a full hall as that means more people playing


  1. I think the people who really won't come because of the comp, are using it as an excuse. I mean you'd really miss out on the NZTC because you can't use Teclis or take a second WLC? Really? REALLY ????

    Precious little snowflakeses....

  2. I prefer FOB-lite with no special characters for the following reasons:
    1) we have NO IDEA what ETC will come up with this year. FOB-lite is "big tent" in that it accomodates "serious gamers" and those who want to have a really fun weekend with their friends

    2) Special characters are a flash point for debate = Leave them out. This year it was Morathi and Throgg as far as the eye could see. If we can remove them I'm confident NZTC will still be a success even though a Grom the Punch themed list can't turn up

    3) I feel ETC is alienating of the 80% of people who attend events for fun/social gaming instead of Masters contention/ETC tryout. It changes the rules, has a bit of a reputation (justified or not), and suffers from a serious case of "you can't do that" comp in attempts to flatten the curve.

    4) if 80% of people attending havnt played ETC rules I can imagine the event will be a bit chaotic/lead to some upsets. Losing is fine...losing because ETC changed a rule you were not aware of = not a good experience. A happy TO is a good TO...a stressed out TO constantly clarifying rule variations to people with limited experience of ETC play is not desirable. We can expect attendees to know the basic rules of 8th ed WHFB...we cannot realistically expect people to also know how the ETC changes interact with the main rules that are clarified 1 month before the event leaving very minimal time to have practice games etc etc.

    I personally dont mind ETC (well, this year's varient anyway), but I believe the event will work better with FOB-lite "big tent" comp.

    That's my 2 cents

    Joel v

    1. What Joel said... ETC comp is perhaps a bridge too far for 80% of gamers here. Pete lite is still fun enough for most people and not so outrageous that it couldn't be applied to an ETC situation. Removing special characters would be a must though.

    2. Stop bandying 80% figures about as if they where fact. Many ETC events have been run in NZ this year without any issues. Everyone enjoyed themselves. It might discourage 10% of potentials, but then so could Pete lite. Its all hearsay.

      If you enjoyed this years, you will enjoy next years. Except now you have the option to take a so called "less competitive" army and still enjoy your games.

      ETC introduces a solid FAQ, something GW has neglected for years now. If anything this alone will increase the enjoyment of the game as it makes the system a lot clearer.

      There is no steep learning curve, no massive game breaking changes. ETC establishes 7th edition style LoS system, something I hear many people always wish 8th had, and makes a few changes with movement to clear up some contentious issues. The only other notable change would be 5 dice magic casting cap.

      I can't see why people wouldn't want to use a comp pack written and designed for team play, but then I have played a few more ETC events than the average punter in NZ.

    3. My point was that the very fact that ETC changes the rules is the very reason is shouldnt be used. If it was just the comp system = fine - people play under different comp systems all the time at various events.

      But the current players pack basically says "using a comp and rules system that will not be finalised until 1 month may or may not be able to use the models you own and enjoy using at most events + may have to internalise some rule changes at the last minute".

      Or it could read: "Go and see the comp system as it will be used (with allowances for any new armybook releases) - start prepping now with the rules you know and the models you's a link to ETC 2014 banned play/base sizes/FAQ for reference"

      Having to commit to flights (some from Oz), time of work, etc etc I would suggest that certainity beats a vague promise that the ETC AR committee will have a workable draft by the cut off date without glaring errors.

      Joel v

    4. Its a fair point Joel, and I agree. But the point doesn't back up your argument to abandon ETC comp

      If the player base is concerned with uncertainty, then we can simply lock in this years ETC comp as of August (ETC) this year, along with all the FAQs etc.

      The comp was unlikely to change much for next year, so will still be relevant. Best of both worlds.

    5. Those Throgg and Morathi armies came nowhere last year. Leave special characters in I say.

  3. Personally I like ETC. It seems to balance out the extremes in the game. It also enables people to bring less "optimized" armies and still do well. This means we will likely see more variation in both armies and units used.

    Regarding rules; some of the different rules are excellent, such as the line of sight for hills (and I play dwarfs!), but some are silly; such as the building rules. It sort of evens out in my opinion. However the difference in rules is not that stark and you can generally work out the main differences relatively quickly.

    If FOB lite were used, how would the scenarios be used? Same format as usual? Or different to cope with a team event?

    For a teams event personally ETC makes sense. When I play I want to play on a relatively even playing field against a variety of armies. It was refreshing seeing Tomb Kings, Beastmen, etc make an appearance whilst being a bit more competitive at this years ETC events in NZ.

    Like Joel said, just my 2 cents. Especially as I am new on the scene.


    1. NZTC is battleline only as per players pack.

      One thing to remember is that ETC rules and comp change every year. Have a look through the ETC parts of The WHF to see how this happens and examples of previous iterations of the rules/FAQs/comp.

      ie the rules/comp we played under this year may not be the rules/comp come January 2014 (the cut off date confirming the ETC rule set that will be used...assuming there is a confirmed draft ready by then).

      Joel v

  4. 2. with Special Characters

    For the record, I do not Remember any problems this year. It all ran very smoothly

  5. 2. with special characters - this year it rang pretty smoothly and was a success, why change a successful formula?

    1. Because the style of comp isn't consistent with becoming better at ETC style gaming. Whilst it's fun to play with special characters, it makes some things extremely easy and if you want a transference of Warhammer "skills" into the ETC itself - and this will leave you coming up short... I'm not saying that it's right or the best way to play but it's like being stuck between a rock and a hard place really. Because if if you self comp (which I did to a certain extent at Guardcon) the game doesn't quite play out like it does in and ETC environment and you are always on the back foot from the start (I don't know maybe that's a good thing...?).

    2. Your argument suggests that NZTC is for making players better at ETC.
      That is awesome if you are a top player and can afford to go to ETC but what about the rest of us? If the argument is like it or lump it, please let me know and then I'll make a decision about whether I want to bother being practice for you or not?

      Now is that what the NZTC event is about? If it is then why bother even having the conversation about Comp? I would suggest you also think about other players and what they want to play and are prepared to stump up for as well? I want to play at an event where I can play against a range of stuff. I am all about supporting and growing a player base, rather than putting up with elite player nonsense.

    3. Mate I don't think I said like it or lump it...and if you read my previous post I didn't even say we should use the ETC rules but rather Pete Lite without special characters. No the NZTC isn't about the ETC...however it is the only team event of it's type in the South Pacific, so it doesn't even require a small leap of logic to assume that players who want practice for the ETC will attend the tournament. Regarding your thoughts on what other players think and growing the player base have you ever ran and organised a tournament yourself?

    4. Completely agree with you that ETC players will want to practice at the event. I am just saying that is the event for them or the whole community and some clarity around that would be useful.

      Are you trying to put me in my place with the "have you ever ran and organised a tournament yourself?" Because that smacks of more elite player nonsense. Should I shut the hell up and defer to those who have (and presume that is you)? What point are you trying to make here?

      To answer your erroneous question. Actually yes I have, a small 40k tournament in Levin which I recall either Pete Dunne or Glen Burfeild won. It is hard work and not exactly gratifying. So what is your point?

    5. Cool glad that you you will know it's pretty hard to run a tournament and get the balance right. ETC players are the community, Hobby players are the community and people who want to roll dice, have some yarns around a good meal on a Saturday night are all part of the community. I think I'm all of the above. Let's try and find some balance.

  6. Keep it fun. I agree with Rory. FoB Lite without special characters.

  7. 2 with Special Characters, there 4 Morathi/Throggs this year and the world didn't end..

  8. to answer the question: 2 with special characters.

    I think people are missing the point somewhat. The NZTC is the premier event of the year and the only team one. The event is phenomonally well run and organised with an excellent venue and terrain on tables.

    I find it really hard to believe that people would chose not to attend due to the ETCcomp pack, which is really only a harder cap and a few more tweaked rules than FoB Lite. Heck, I'd attend if the comp was "No Special or Rares and everyone gets a free Nagash"!

    Really the comp debate is a red herring. The question should be: "Do you want to attend the best tournament in this half of the planet or not?"


    1. Amen! I cleared my schedule as soon as this event was announced.

      This is even though I am a cricket nut and the NZ- Australia World Cup ODI is on the same day in Auckland and I already had confirmed tickets. It is probably the only time the World Cup will be held here in 40-50 years and this is the biggest game. To me this seems like the premier NZ warhammer tourny and trumps even the black caps grudge match. I will be there regardless of comp :)


  9. 2 with special characters. I haven't really enjoyed the ETC games i have played and i have a few ideas on how i could use special characters

  10. Ok, this is what I'm going to do. Nine teams have signed up to the NZTC. Each of those teams' Captains will receive an email from me regarding the preferred comp system for the event.

    They will then have the opportunity to poll their own team and choose what they want to play.

    There will be four possible choices:

    1. 2014 ETC Comp
    2. 2015 ETC Comp (as at 31 January)
    3. FOB Lite Comp
    4. FOB Lite Comp - excluding Special Characters

    Each team will have a first and second choice.

    ETC Comp comes with ETC restrictions, rules pack, FAQs etc
    FOB Lite Comp comes with the set of clarifications Peter W drew up for this year's event.

    1. I agree, that is a fair way to decide comp for NZTC 2015.

      - Adam Richards

    2. Herman

      I don't have your email but if you could canvas your team and flick me an email on its preferred options that would be great.



  11. Putting it out to the captains is a good idea, they can collate the opinions from the masses and provide you with a mini survey of where to proceed. Hopefully clearer than mud at that stage for you.

    For my own thoughts, I would attend irrespective of the comp. If I had to make a choice I would go FOB Lite with special characters allowed. Less is more in my opinion. I appreciate the last 12 months experience of different comp systems though, always good to vary. However as you've noted you want as many players as possible and FOB Lite simply lets people bring their toys. The fact that it is shrinking rather than growing as other systems are is a testament to it's success.

    I'm not sure ETC achieves any further balance as it simply changes the list of usual suspects at the top "shifting the goalposts". Some people will attempt to break any comp system as much as possible. In addition - NZ's small pool of players (and most players bringing armies they like more than armies that win that they don't like so much), player skill tends to override ultimate list grinding ability.

  12. New to tournies this year: ETC was a huge barrier for entry.It was difficult to find the latest rules, understand them, construct a list to cap, and play the idiosyncrasies.

    I nearly didn't sign up because of it, but in the end I persevered and enjoyed it.

    I would suggest if you want to encourage new blood: FOB lite with no Special Characters